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[Chat (Android)] Damage Reduction 101

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#1
Posted on 8/13/15 10:29:01 AM | Show thread starter's posts only

UNDERSTANDING THE DAMAGE REDUCTION

The damage reduction is applied, of course, to the damage that a hero receives. Thus if a defender hero with 3/5 stone skin (15% reduction) receives a raw damage of 15,000, the damage actually received by the hero is only 85% (100% -15%) of the initial damage: 15000 * 85 % = 12750

Trick Question: What happens if this defender hero with 3/5 stone skin is actually a paladin with skill 5/10?

The Wrong answer would be: Well, the skill of the paladin when activated reduces incoming damage by 70%, moreover the stone skin reduces over 15%. So the total reduction is 85% !!!

Indeed that's the most immediate answer that comes to mind, but in fact what happens is not a direct sum! Far from it!

The Right answer would be: Due to the talent, he will receive only 85% of the gross damage (because the talent reduces 15%) and from this amount he will receive only 30% (for his skill reduces 70%).

Then the 15,000 damage will be reduced to 15,000 * 85% * 30% = 3825 which corresponds to a total reduction of 74.5% (much lower than the 85% who thought at first and almost nothing better than the original paladin's 70% shield)

Overall formula: 
Damage taken = Gross Damage* (1 - %reduction from talent)*(1-%reduction from some shield due to an allied skill)

TENACITY VS STONE SKIN

Within the scope of damage reduction, we have the classical comparison tenacity vs. stone Skin:

Tenacity will increase the hero of HP directly as follows: HP * (1+%tenacitybuff)

Stone skin, on the other hand, will not increase the actual HP, but will reduce the damage as we saw earlier.

Suppose a hero with total 60000 HP (inscription and crest HP bonuses included)

If this hero has 5/8 tenacity then that HP will increase by 30%. The actual HP will be 60000 * 1.3 = 78000

Now suppose instead of tenacity, he has 5/8 stone skin that reduces all damage taken by 25%. Thus, for this hero to die, he should receive a damage X such that 75% (=100% -25%) of it is equal to 60 000 HP !!

Mathematically we have:
 X * 75% = 60000 
 X = 60000/75% = 80000

You may notice the stone skin hero will have to receive more damage to die! So it is said that effective HP due to damage reduction is greater than an directly increased HP (by tenacity or bulwar for instance)

The same analysis can be done for 8/8 talents level (or any level):

Tenacity 8/8 = 100% hp buff
Increased HP = HP*(1+100%)=2*HP

Stone skin 8/8 = 60% damage reduction
Effective HP = HP/(100%-60%) = HP/0,4 = 2,5*HP

At the table below you can compare the HP improvement factor for these talents at different levels:


From that table we can afirm that for level 4 stone skin or tenacity have the same efficiency. For talent level lower than 4, tenacity gives better results. But for talent level 5 or higher, stone skin is imensely better.


INTERACTION WITH HEALING

Another interesting thing is the interaction of damage reduction with healing. Imagine, for example, a hero that receives a 15,000 HP heal from Druid. 

For these 15,000 be lost again, a greater damage than those 15,000 have to be received precisely because of the damage reduction! Therefore it is said that healing is actually more effective on heroes with damage reduction! 

FLAME GUARD

It has been proven in several videos that talent flame guard, by reflecting the damage to attackers will also reduces damage taken by the defender!
So it is better than the stone skin at levels 1 and 2 for it offers a higher reduction. However from level 3+, stone skin will be better due to greater % of dmg reduction!!

Recommended video:
https://youtu.be/z5l2f9DFax4

Extra: RESIDUAL HP ANALYSIS (for 5/8 talents but can be done for other lvls aswell)

This analysis explain the treshold of the effectivenss between tenacity and stone skin. What the amount of dmg taken which will make dmg reduction better than increasing HP?  








Hope it helps 

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#2
Posted on 8/13/15 2:35:11 PM | Show thread starter's posts only

Is it better to stack SS w/FG or LD?

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#3
Posted on 8/13/15 5:00:03 PM | Show thread starter's posts only

as we saw in the "trick question" example, stacking dmg reduction is not that effective.. So i would probably use SS + tenacity instead of SS+flame guard.. But in my opinion its always good to have revive talent on your heroes and revive's crest set provides awesome hp bonus which will be enhanced too by ss or tenacity.
So i consider SS+revive or tenacity + revive very solid options.

Concerning LD, even though I really really really love it (yeah i'm huge fan of LD!) as primary talent (so it could have level 5 or higher), I'm not fond of LD as crest (for it usually means low level ld..)

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#4
Posted on 8/13/15 5:10:30 PM | Show thread starter's posts only

Good w/LD: High HP, fast attacker, range

Poor w/LD: Slow attacks, low HP, often stunned tank

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#5
Posted on 8/13/15 5:37:37 PM | Show thread starter's posts only

Orks thinks math is hard?

Orks level 139, no inscriptions, skill 3 : ATK 3336, HP 50040, Atk speed 1200

Swings for 200%, hits say 2 targets, heals for 50%, every fifth hit = heals 6672 every 6 seconds or 1112 per second.

With SS/3 takes 15% less damage, which "adds" to healing by 17.7%

With Zerk/3 adds healing by 20%

With LD/3 heals 1501 HP every 1.2 seconds so adds healing by 112.5%

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#6
Posted on 8/13/15 6:53:47 PM | Show thread starter's posts only

I still dont get the whole point of this.. as we all agree LD is very good on ork.. 

One quick note: Even though his description says so, ork's heals from his skill are not related to the dmg he causes.. His heals are ALWAYS equals to:

(ATK stat due to hero level+ATK stat due to inscription + ATK stat due to crest)*(%skill/2)

His damage do get buffed by allied heros or talents buffs but his heals do not!  

HEALING 101 
http://cc.forum.igg.com/topic?fcid=267&ctid=215968 explains it in deepth.

Anyways beside that mistake, the following math you did was ok. And just for fun i'll complete your math for the case of those talents as crests instead of primary talents. 

Orks  : ATK 3336, HP 50040, Atk speed 1200
Ork level 139, no inscriptions, skill 3/10

So in this case, ignoring the main talent:

with 3/5 zerk crest set (+1232 atk)  his skill's heals are 4568 (=3336+1232)*2/2
with 3/5 stone skin crest set (+363 atk) his skill's heals are 3699 (=3336+363)*2/2
with 3/5 life drain crest set (+363 atk) his skill's heals are also 3699 (=3336+363)*2/2

with 3/5 zerk his atk speed is 1000ms which will make him proc every 7s: 4568/7=652,57 per second

with 3/5 ss his atk speed is still 1200ms which will make him proc every 8,4s: 3699/8,4 = 440,36 per second but we can assume this will be effectively improved. 
So we get 440,36/(1-0,15)=587,15 per second 

With 3/5 ld his atk speed is still 1200ms which will make him proc every 8,4s: 3699/8,4 = 440,36 per second but we must not forget to add the 3%HP per 1,2s:

3% of (50040+10800)=1825,2 per 1,2s which is 1521 per second
So total of 587,15 + 1521 = 2108,15 per second

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#7
Posted on 8/13/15 7:20:53 PM | Show thread starter's posts only

So if I have life drain molt is it better to have a level 4 stone skin or tenacity crest set? 6/8 life drain atm

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#8
Posted on 8/13/15 8:40:20 PM | Show thread starter's posts only

From this table you can see that the HP-enhancing factor will be the same for these talents both at 4/5. In this case the difference will be due to crest hp bonus.

 

I did the math for 180 9 star molt and assumed inscription level at 95:




Now's the same thing for 8/8 LD.  20k heals its insane!


hope it helps ..

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